Copa America 1995, Brazil v Argentina qf July 18, 1995 Subject: Havelange 4, Argentina 2 (Gabriele Marcotti) July 18, 1995 Well that was disgraceful (Ariel Mazzarelli) July 18, 1995 Oh, and the worst of all (Ariel Mazzarelli, Colin Morris, Adrian German) July 18, 1995 Re: The Hand of God II (Ariel Mazzarelli) July 18, 1995 Handballs, dives, et al (Loris Magnani) July 19, 1995 La Mano de Havelange (Ariel Mazzarelli) July 19, 1995 Top 10 reasons why Brasil is still playing in Copa America (Ariel Mazzarelli) July 19, 1995 Justice At Last (Shaggy, Garry Archer, Ariel Mazzarelli) ================================= From: email@example.com (Gabriele Marcotti) Subject: Havelange 4, Argentina 2 Date: July 18, 1995 For those who don't know Brazil beat Argentina 4-2 on penalties. Here are a few thoughts on the game. First of all I should say that I'm neither Brazilian nor Argentinian, nor am I a big fan of either country. As a matter of fact, my country (Italy) was bounced by these two teams in the last two World Cups (on penalties no less). My favorite club team (Inter) has one player on each team, so once again my loyalties are divided. Here goes: 1) Argentina had the upper hand during the entire game. Balbo missed the easiest of goals, Batistuta was unjustly called off-sides a few times, and Argentina could've scored three or four. They deserved to win. 2) Tulio's goal was bullshit, as anybody who saw it can attest to. Some may say it was divine retribution for Diego's hand of God goal, but the reality is that Argentina was once again screwed by the establishment. Or if you look at it another way, Brazil got a little push. Think hard, how many convincing wins against top teams has Brazil had in the last two years? Penalty squeakers against Italy and Argentina, off-side goals against Holland, dubious play against Sweden... this is hardly a great team. 3) What was most frustrating to me as a soccer fan was the play on the field. Batistuta is God, but he was taken off in a stupid defensive move. Balbo should also have stayed on - I can understand removing a striker, but Acosta is definitely not the answer. They should have taken off Balbo and put in a defensive midfielder IMHO. Besides that, everybody else was fairly pedestrian, except for Zanetti (essentially a right-footed Maldini) and Simeone who was a beast in midfield. Brazil was not much better. Jorginho and Dunga, old warriors though they might be, are shadows of their former selves. Juninho was all hype, no substance. In the second half he wandered around like a lost smurf, contributing absolutely nothing. The only guys I liked were Aldair (solid, if unspectacular), Ceasr Sampaio (ditto), and Roberto Carlos, who had some great runs. Andre, Savio, Leonardo and the rest of the gang were painful to watch. What is most frustrating is that we could've seen (in a perfect world) the likes of Gallardo, Redondo, Ronaldo, Romario, Zinho, Anderson, etc. instead we got scrubs like Borrelli and Astrada (BTW, from his nasty tackle that led to his sending off I guess he learned his soccer from Batista or Ruggeri). 4) I guess now we can sit back and watch Brazil crush Alexi Lalas and co. before beating up either a demoralized Colombian team or a Uruguayan team that is playing some of the worst soccer it has ever produced (It is amazing that the Fonseca-Sosa partnership could fall so far, so fast). Either way you slice it, it's pretty fucking depressing. ======================================== From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Well that was disgraceful Date: July 18, 1995 Argentina dominated the game, clearly outplayed Brasil, scored two goals, and with ten minutes to go the referee culminated a very one-sided performance by overlooking the clearest handball you will ever see. If you have not seen it, you might find a parallel between this play and la Mano de Dios. The only difference is that it took many replays and angles to see Diego's play. This one was so blatant that the announcers did not even announce the goal, only noticing after several seconds that the referee had in fact not sanctioned the foul. Every replay from every angle (there were four) showed it very clearly. Two of the replays even showed that when Tulio began his move that ended with extending the full length of his arm to knock the ball down, he was actually offside. Together with the nauseating one-sidedness of his yellow-card show (6 for Argentina, and one ejection at the end of the first half, none against Brasil until the handball). It was so crass, so blatant, that I would not do justice to it by trying to convey it any further. It is clear after this game, however, that Argentina has a far better team than Brasil. In terms of character, in terms of offense, of tactical understanding, of technique, Argentina outplayed Brasil and their whistle-blowing friend. It is unfortunate that we do not get to see a rematch between Argentina and the US squad, which I am afraid may not be able to handle such a strong team when it receives so much help from the referees. It is games like this one that help me to understand a little better why Argentina did not really play a world cup from 1934 to 1954, or what happened in Wembley in 1966 (although at least the English gol was legitimate). ======================================== From: email@example.com (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Oh, and the worst of all Date: July 18, 1995 Argentina-Brasil still had 10 minutes remaining. It was already a firm candidate as the greatest game I had ever seen. To ruin such a game... to defecate on artwork, to pervert all sense of aesthetics and history, it is a very grave offense. I suspect that many of you have not seen the game, so I would just summarize the performance of the referee, whose name is too nauseating to mention, and whose birthplace I prefer not to smear... made Codesal (the referee of the final between Germany and Argentina in 1990) seem impartial by comparison. This is my sincere reaction, I do not believe that I am exaggerating. If FIFA had any interest in the welfare of futbol, it would at least make some sort of investigation. I am not holding my breath. --------------------------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Colin Morris) Subject: Re: Oh, and the worst of all Date: July 18, 1995 Ariel Mazzarelli wrote: >To ruin such a game... But surely to effectively lose to a goal of such consummate 'beauty' makes up for us? I suggest a little introspection on your (and Argentina's) part would be more profitable. Every time Argentina fails to win, it seems that folks like you will roll out the conspiracy theories to explain away the defeats. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't wash. You've got, imo, the most talented bunch of *players* in the world but the performances of the *team* rarely match up to that talent in the tournaments that matter. As for their failure in this competition I suggest you conduct an investigation of Passarella as opposed to the referee. He's the guy whose crazy decisions have effectively cost you this tournament. Let's face it, without his arrogance of playing nine reserves, in all probability Argentina would have trashed a very poor Mexican team last night. --------------------------------------------- From: email@example.com (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Re: Oh, and the worst of all Date: Jul 19, 1995 Ah, yes, but then we would have had the referee in the semifinal. On the other hand, in legal goals, Argentina won 2-1. The illegal gol came courtesy of the referee. That is a fact, whether you deny it or not, it is still a fact. ---------------------------------------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Adrian German) Subject: Re: Oh, and the worst of all Date: July 21, 1995 In legal goals in Mexico, Argentina and England are still 1-1. You see Diego's first goal was a handball. He scored a second one later which Brasil didn't do against Argentina. But Argentina still had time to make 3-2 right? and even to make it to the semis because there was time and they were the better team. Then there were the penalties... But they didn't do it and that's it. Now if you're gonna write about this forever you're nothing but a crybaby. Argentina should've scored immediately but they didn't. They should've kicked in the penalties, but they didn't. Why is that, because they don't have the necessary skill? I am just asking... there are people who say both Argentinean goals were mistakes of Taffarelli's (sic!). The fact that England is not as flashy as Argentina doesn't make Diego's handball more acceptable. Not even the fact that Diego dominated the international scene for the last 10 years justifies it. And whether England plays more or less exciting soccer than Argentina is arguable, and a matter of taste. There are people who like the style of play of England period. Oh, oh, Argentina have been robbed... So what? That's life, let's get on with it. Argentina should've kicked in all their penalties given the skill, that's all they had to do. They didn't... I do find both incidents very similar. I should say "I have a poster with Maradona's goal in 1986 that I would like to trade for a poster with Tulio's handball..." but I won't. I found Mazzarelli's posting about Chile (I think it was "the macroscopic effects of Arg-Chile 4-0" or something like that) really disgusting. It's his freedom to post. It's also unfair to stereotype. I am sorry for all the other Argentinean fans and I surely wish their team will do better in the international competitions from now on. Good luck to you, Argentina! ============================================= From: email@example.com (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Re: The Hand of God II Date: July 18, 1995 firstname.lastname@example.org (Juan Gonzalez) wrote: >email@example.com (Huw Morris) said: >>Lourenco Dantas wrote: >>> Well, I'm not proud of seeing Brasil win in such a manner, >>> but, hey, the Hand of God is the Hand of GOD! >>I wonder if the Argentinians can appreciate the beauty of it? :-) >Yes we can, and will you also call Brazilians cheaters now? Now now Juan, you know very well that it is only definitely cheating if it is done to England (even if it takes CIA surveillance cameras from fourteen angles + pattern recognition massages), and it is definitely not cheating if it is done to Argentina. Frankly, I am a little saddened by the posts of (some of) the English, because the only other "big" country that I can think of that celebrates a Brasilian victoriy as its own is Mexico. Maybe that will change if they win the Eurocopa? Ariel PS: Yes I know but with proper equipment pigs can indeed fly. ================================ Subject: Handballs, dives, et al. From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Loris Magnani) Date: July 18, 1995 I forked over $20 yesterday and begged a friend to let me use his TV and his cable provider so I could watch the two games of Copa America. I was happy with the USA's win, though they seemed to play more poorly than I've seen them play lately. I hope that this was their one bad game of the tournament. But then I got to see what I really was waiting for: Brasil-Argentina. In my opinion these are the two best teams in the world at this time and I wanted to see them go at it. The first half was spectacular. I was very impressed by Argentina. And Brazil had flashes of brilliance. I got my money's worth. We all know how the second half went. The ridiculous moves by Passarella, the handball, the penalties, etc. This morning I read r.s.s. and there were myriad posts to the effect that Argentina somehow was "punished" now for what Maradona did in '86. Frankly, I find such posts pathetic. Maradona got away with a handball in 1986. It happens. Tulio got away with one last night. It happens. Someone will someday explain to me why what Maradona did in 1986 was any worse than a player diving in the area and provoking an undeserved penalty kick. That crap goes on all the time (especially in Serie A) and everybody deplores it but accepts it as part of football. So, again, how is that any different than what Maradona did. Both actions result in an undeserved goal. Yet one has unleashed more ink and electrons than any other topic (aside from the Manchester United pro/con posts, of course)...Why??? If last night's hand ball puts to rest all this Maradona and Argentinean bashing, then it was worth it. It's time to archive Maradona's handball as an interesting incident in an old tournament. To continually resurrect it makes me think that there's more going on here than just whining about a missed call. The next time you feel like posting a message on Maradona's handball in 86, remember last night's game. R.S.S. will be a better place for it. ============================================= From: email@example.com (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: La Mano de Havelange Date: July 19, 1995 The envious RSSers seem to have finally achieved orgasm. Personally, I cannot understand why they needed so much foreplay--Argentina has been victimized by FIFA so many times, few of us retain the ability to be surprised anymore. Yet last night, I was surprised. I did not expect that the referee would be so obviously one-sided. His attitude, his yellow cards were obviously against Argentina. But the Mano de Havelange was too obvious. The envious ones here seem to think there is a parallel between this play and Diego's against England. That is of course a very ignorant thing to do. There is a difference between calling a referee "incompetent", or "unable to make a difficult call" (which applies to the 1986 game), and "bought" (which applies to last night's game). There is a difference between a player cheating by proving that the hand is faster than the eye (and even the television's eye), and a referee deliberately throwing a game. Finally, of course, no one in their right mind claimed that England had outplayed, or evenly played, Argentina. On the other hand, last night Brasil was clearly outplayed and outscored by Argentina. Our brasilian friends seem to believe that by repeating over and over again that they are the greatest do mundo, that justice was served, that that makes it so. You know there are 150 million of them, they can certainly clog up any newsgroup. Unfortunately for them, most people saw the game, and know what happened. It is rather alarming that Brasil continues to receive so many benefits from the futbol bureaucracy. I expected someone from the Netherlands to point out that this is the second consecutive major tournament where Brasil avoided elimination directly as a consequence of bias from the referees. How many more can we expect? ============================================= From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Top 10 reasons why Brasil is still playing in Copa America Date: July 19, 1995 10. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 9. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 8. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 7. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 6. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 5. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 4. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 3. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 2. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. 1. Brasil bought the referee and the linesman. If you feel this post lacks imagination, complain to the CBF. ================================= From: email@example.com (Shaggy) Subject: Justice At Last Date: July 19, 1995 At last, after years of being told by the Argentinians on this group that Maradona's goal in 1986 was not worth talking about etc, the boot is on the other foot as Argentina are robbed in just the same way. I take it, Ariel, that you won't be going on and on about this and just treat it for what it was, divine intervention!! Incidentally, to anybody that says that Maradona's goal was not obviously handball when seen for the first time, this is patently garbage - I watched the game with 300 students in my student union and everybody shouted handball the instant Maradona made contact. I have a lot of respect for Argentina as a football team and was particularly disappointed with their exit from the World Cup last year when they were playing the best football of the tournament. However, I'm sick to death of listening to their fans go on and on about how they're the greatest team in the World and have been for umpteen years - it gets very boring indeed after a while. So, Argentina and England have both been cheated by handballs in major tournaments and I'd like to suggest that no more is said on the subject of either handball by supporters of either side. ----------------------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Garry Archer) Subject: Re: Justice At Last Date: July 24, 1995 Here, here! Or perhaps I should say, ha! ha! ;-) Twenty-nine (29) years later and we still debate Geoff Hurst's off-the-bar goal in the 1966 World Cup Final. Seventeen (17) years have gone by and we still analyse whether or not the Argentina-Peru match was fixed in the 1978 World Cup Finals. Thirteen (13) years later and we still fondly remember the West Germany and Austria debacle that effectively knocked out a great Algeria team in the 1982 World Cup Finals. Nine (9) years later and we still flame-fest about Diego Maradona's "Hand of God" goal against England in the 1986 World Cup Finals. Who would have thought after all these years that hundreds of folks would still be arguing over those games?! Now Tulio's goal joins the Honour List. Perhaps it will be forgotten -- it didn't happen in a World Cup Finals tournament for all the world to see. The beauty of football is that we can remember the games forever and the arguments will never end -- as can be seen by the four incidents, above. As long as there are always two sides to the story -- and there always are, because there are always two sides in a footy match. We may still be here in 30 years time on a creaking old Internet in rec.sport.soccer.history.memories.goals (created after numerous successful votes to split the group) chaffing at the bit to talk about Tulio's goal that helped to knock Argentina out of Copa America '95! --------------------------------------------- From: email@example.com (Ariel Mazzarelli) Subject: Re: Justice At Last Date: July 20, 1995 Now really, Shaggy, when have I said that that golazo was not worth talking about? Sheesh, a guy types up kilobytes and gets ignored. You're breaking my heart. >I watched the game with 300 students in my student union and everybody >shouted handball the instant Maradona made contact. Oh sure, but when they saw the replay... "Blimey, where's the lil' buggar's hand?" "Bloody hell, he can't outjump Shilton!" "Hey wasn't that offside?" On the other hand, maybe it was the infiltrated Scots egging you on. Must consider all possibilities! At any rate, Shaggy, I am sure as the day is long that the two plays are not comparable. Have you run out of coca tea perhaps? >However, I'm sick to death of listening to their fans go on and on about >how they're the greatest team in the World and have been for umpteen years But it's true! Argentina is the best team in the world, has been for decades. I am sorry it bores you, but most of your European peers are not as knowledgeable as you are. Aren't you the first bloke on your block to know about Zanetti? Why is that? Because I told you so! Such ingratitude. Don't worry, I forgive you. After all, you do have the good taste to put the quality of the game above the flags involved. That this trait should be rare when one's own team is involved is understandable, but third parties? That's why we're here, Shaggy! Of course, if Argentina were not "in consideration" so often, I suppose that I could take a more detached approach. You see, I am a victim of circumstance. >I'd like to suggest that no more is said on the subject of either handball >by supporters of either side. So what are the odds on that taking place? However, I must say that if Uruguay does what they should do on Sunday, it will all look pretty funny.