Jun 9, 1995 A note on All-Time XI's (Loris Magnani) Aug 8, 1995 Milan's All-Time XI (Loris Magnani) Feb 19, 1997 Top 50 Italian Players Of All Time (Marco Daniele Paserman, e.a.) Feb 19, 1997 All Time Italian XIs (Massa Sugano) Apr 24, 1998 Inter's All-Time XI (Paul Mettewie) ================================ Subject: A note on All-Time XI's From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Loris Magnani) Date: June 9, 1995 Lately we have had a flurry of lists of All-time XI's...this is a fun activity and is done in every sport. While there can never be a consensus All-time XI, I would like to make a point about the sweeper (alternatively one of the central defender) position... Several postings have put Franco Baresi in one of the central defender positions, presumably sweeper but not necessarily. This is nice and I'm happy to see that recognition, but I would like to point out that in Italy one of the few positions there is consensus about in an All-Italian All-time XI is sweeper. And that position is held by the late Gaetano Scirea of Juventus and WC82 fame. He was as good a marker as Baresi was (and please let's not bring in the Baresi of the last few years, we all agree he is way past his prime) and he did not resort as often to the hard, professional foul which Franco has used a bit too often throughout his career (even when he was truly great he did foul too much). In short, Scirea had much more of that nebulous quantity called "class" than Baresi and, in addition, he was a more effective offensive player than F.B.. So, if you want to put an ITALIAN sweeper in your all-time World XI (and maybe you should consider players like Passarella, or Krol, or Bratseth, or someone else...) then you should at least pick the player italians choose as their Consensus All-Time Sweeper and that's Scirea. You can put Franco B. on the bench (I actually would put Scirea as sweeper and Passarella as his replacement on the bench, but I haven't figured out all the positions yet...) ============================ Subject: Milan's All-time XI From: email@example.com (Loris Magnani) Date: Aug 8, 1995 I don't feel qualified to pick an all-time World XI, but I do feel qualified to pick Milan's all-time XI. Granted, there may not be much interest, but I would be curious to hear comments from any interested parties... Cudicini Schnellinger Rijkaard Baresi P. Maldini Liedholm Ancelotti Schiaffino Rivera Nordhal Altafini Reserves: Albertosi GK Tassotti D Trapattoni D Lodetti MF Donadoni MF van Basten F Prati F Gullit F Notes: Rijkaard played stopper in his first year with Milan (though he didn't like it...). Schnellinger, Rijkaard, Schiaffino, Altafini, and Nordhal are foreigners. If you force me to play with only 3 foreigners I would put in Tassotti for Schnellinger and Prati for Altafini. ====================================================== From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Marco Daniele Paserman) Subject: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 19, 1997 As Karel Stokkermans requested, instead of writing down clearly nationally biased lists, I'll make a list of only Italian players. Some disclaimers: 1)"All time" really means post 1930s. There is simply too little information on the pre-WC era. 2) I can make direct judgments on players from the mid 70's onwards, since I have seen them in live/TV action on a regular basis. I have seen occasional footage of players of the '60s, and for earlier periods I must rely solely on what I have read 3) I have not included any "oriundi" (nationalized italians who played for the Azzurri), to avoid the rage of South American RSSers. Clearly Monti, Orsi, Cesarini, Sivori and Altafini would have made this list. 4) I tried to maintain a fair ratio of oldtimers to modern players. This probably comes at the cost of having a bias towards oldtime strikers, since I can judge them on statistics only. 5) I am a Juventus fan. However, the fact that there may seem to be an overrepresentation of Juve players is purely a consequence of Juve being the strongest Italian team of all time :) Here is the list, in roughly chronological order: 1. Meazza 2. Ferrari 3. Piola 4. Combi 5. Rosetta 6. Caligaris 7. Biavati 8. Valentino Mazzola 9. Loik 10. Gabetto 11. Boffi 12. Puricelli 13. Boniperti 14. Parola 15. Riva 16. Rivera 17. Sandro Mazzola 18. Burgnich 19. Facchetti 20. Corso 21. Picchi 22. Zoff 23. Causio 24. Bettega 25. Antognoni 26. Graziani 27. Pulici 28. Boninsegna 29. Furino 30. Gentile 31. Cabrini 32. Scirea 33. Conti 34. Tardelli 35. Paolo Rossi 36. Bergomi 37. Pruzzo 38. Altobelli 39. Franco Baresi 40. Paolo Maldini 41. Roberto Baggio 42. Mancini 43. Vialli 44. Signori 45-50. ??? There you go. I've left 6 slots free for comments and suggestions. -------------------------------------- From: Riffster (email@example.com) Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 22, 1997 Good list - there are some quibbles, here are my six. Giorgio Chinaglia (Wales and Lazio loved him before USA ever saw him) Fabio Capello (Milan and Real Madrid coach) ? Albertosi (the great keeper of Milan/Nazionale in the 60's and 70's) Walter Zenga (Okay, he is better than Pagliuca - for now...) Romeo Benetti (cannon for a foot, heart of a lion, Milan 60-70s) Gianfranco Zola (still the most artistically capable Italian of today) ------------------------------------------- From: Massa Sugano (firstname.lastname@example.org) Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 23, 1997 Un grandissimo elenco. Let's see, as the other 6 slots, I can think of Chinaglia, also Cesare Maldini and Prati from the Milan anni sessanta, and more recently either Ancelotti or Donadoni. Wait, they're almost all milanisti! I guess I am having too much pity on them. Zenga might belong on the list, too. Altobelli looks a bit weak compared to others, doesn't he? I hope that by 1998 you will be able to confidently add more juventini on the list..... -------------------------------------- From: Riffster (email@example.com) Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 23, 1997 Altobelli scored 128 goals for Inter in his great career. More than even the great Sandrino Mazzola (117). He ranks fifth on the all-time scoring list for Inter, only behind 'immortals' like Meazza, Lorenzi, Cevennini and Nyers. He definitely belongs on this list. ------------------------------------------------------ From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Marco Paserman) Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 24, 1997 Thanks for the comments. A few points: As Riffster points out, Altobelli certainly deserves a place in the list. Together with his 128 Serie A goals, he also ranks in the top 15 scorers for the national team, with 24 or 25 goals. A more serious omission is that of Lorenzi, among the best strikers of the 50s, a decade which got little recognition in the original list. Cevenini ? Was he a 1920s player? Other suggestions: Chinaglia: OK but he had a very brief career in Serie A Capello: probably deserves the list (he was mostly a Juve player, after all) Benetti :yes, just to confirm the fact that we italians put catenaccio heroes in our lists Zenga and Albertosi: Both deserving, but I said that the list was biased towards offensive players Ancelotti :ok Donadoni: This one I'll leave out: he never really fully convinced me Cesare Maldini and Prati...good players, but I don't thnk the'd make the top 50. (even though the Milan team of the 60s is clearly underrepresented) Possible candidates to enter in the near future: Ferrara, Zola, potentially Del Piero Summing up, my six extra slots are: 45. Capello 46. Zenga 47. Albertosi 48. Ancelotti 49. Lorenzi 50. Chinaglia -------------------------------------- From: Riffster (email@example.com) Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time Date: Feb 24, 1997 Luigi Cevenini should be from 20's as I can find no mention of him in any of the histories of Inter that I have, which all seem to gloss over the period before the arrival of Meazza. After that, no mention of Cevenini, something I find hard to belive would have to someone who scored 140 Serie A goals. Must have been one of the pioneers....And yes, Lorenzi should be included because the Inter of the early fifties was an attacking powerhouse with Nyers, Skoglund and Lorenzi the most famous. > Other suggestions: > Chinaglia: OK but he had a very brief career in Serie A Yes, but he was the force behind Lazio's scudetto win in the 70's, a landmark moment in Italian soccer. > Capello: probably deserves the list (he was mostly a Juve player, after all) I withdraw him from consideration then! ;-) > Benetti :yes, just to confirm the fact that we italians put catenaccio heroes > in our lists You remember catenaccio and I remember his cannon shot! Oh well.... > Zenga and Albertosi: Both deserving, but I said that the list was biased > towards offensive players While I am ruminating about keepers, how about Giorgio Ghezzi, the standard for Inter keepers before there was Bordon, Zenga and Pagliuca! :) > Ancelotti :ok As a player yes, as a manager - no! > Donadoni: This one I'll leave out: he never really fully convinced me Agreed -- a good player who played hard, but hardly an all-timer. > Cesare Maldini and Prati...good players, but I don't thnk the'd make the > top 50. Maldini was decent and Prati had a few brilliant seasons, but probably not enough to rate in the top 50. > (even though the Milan team of the 60s is clearly underrepresented) Nah -- ci son' troppi rossoneri. basta! And I have one more name for you - Domenghini! Yes, I know he is another Interista, but he did have quite a run in the 60's and early 70's. =========================================== From: Massa Sugano (firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: 5 greatest Italian managers... Date: Feb 20, 1997 One of them is not born in Italy, though. But he even coached the Italian national team. Guess who. 1. Giovanni Trapattoni 2. Enzo Bearzot 3. Helenio Herrera 4. Fabio Cappello 5. Marcello Lippi After which come Rocco, Sacchi, and Valcareggi. --------------------------------- From: Carvalho (email@example.com) Subject: 5 greatest Italian managers... Date: Feb 20, 1997 It is the one that imported the Paraguayan approach to soccer to Italy. It is easy: the only one not with an Italian name =========================================== From: Massa Sugano (firstname.lastname@example.org) Subject: All-time elevens: Date: Feb 19, 1997 Italy (post-WWII): Zoff Bergomi Gentile Baresi Facchetti Conti Tardelli Rivera Corso (Donadoni) V.Mazzola P.Rossi Juventus (post WWII): Zoff Scirea Gentile Kohler Cabrini Tardelli Platini Deschamps P.Rossi Bettega Sivori Milan (post-WWII) Cudicini Tassotti C.Maldini Baresi P.Maldini Gullit Rijkaard Rivera Donadoni Van Basten Nordahl ============================== Subject: All-Time Inter Eleven Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:22:02 -0500 From: Paul Mettewie (email@example.com) I noted in the RSSSF archives that all-time eleven's for Juventus and Milan as well as Italy itself existed within the "50 Great Italian Players" thread. At the time, I was grossly derelict in my duty as a certified (and certifiable) Inter fan in not submitting a like list of Inter players. After all, Inter has won 13 scudetti, 2 EC, 2 UEFA and 2 Intercontinental Cups and like Juventus (on only Inter and Juve) has never, ever been relegated to Serie B. Unlike Inter's crosstown cousins (poor wretches!) Here, in a scientifically-adjusted (I used a calculator before cheating wildly) survey conducted amongst the noble and omniscient 500-plus members of the Inter Italian and English mailing list is the .......(drum roll)....... ALL-TIME INTER ELEVEN!!!! (and reserves) Keepers: Zenga (Pagliuca) Defenders: Picchi, Bergomi, Burgnich, Facchetti (Guarnieri, B. Baresi, Brehme) Midfielders: Matthaeus, Mazzola, Suarez (Beccalossi, Oriali) Forwards: Altobelli, Corso, Meazza (Angelillo, Boninsegna, Rummenigge, Lorenzi, Nyers) Others (excellent players as well, but unfortunately there had to be someone left off!): Skoglund, Marini, Bertini, Sarti, Vieri, Klinsmann, Sosa, Domenghini, Cevinini, Jair, Diaz, Bordon. Positions for the top eleven are below. Remember that I have not attempted to have everyone in their exact positions (left fullbacks, stoppers, center halfs, etc.), rather I was looking to put the all-time best in general areas (defenders, midfielders, attackers). Of course, the keeper and libero positions were made exact matches! ELEVEN NERAZZURRI FOR HISTORY Zenga Picchi Bergomi Burgnich Facchetti Matthaeus Suarez S. Mazzola Corso Altobelli Meazza (Manager: Helenio "The Magician" Herrera) Oh, I almost forgot, Cagao and Lampinho both got votes, even though Cagao never was allowed off the plane at Linate when visiting Milano as he insisted on teaching the Samba repeatedly to a stewardess (excuse me, *flight attendant*). Lampinho was more famous for having seduced the entire secretarial (excuse me, *office assistant*) pool of the Pirelli company rather than his short but very artistic tenure as an Interista..... Oh, yeah, that Ronaldinho guy -- he will have to put in a few more years like this one before he gets on the list. But is there *any* doubt? - Riff "Cagao scored his perfect goal on that flight...." Ster ---------------------------------- Subject: Re: All-Time Inter Eleven Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:36:55 -0500 From: Paul Mettewie (firstname.lastname@example.org) Ariel Mazzarelli wrote: > Y Passarella? He received some votes, but was short of making the list of 22 as was Nicola Berti. I think he would have made the list had he had a couple of more years with the team. It seemed that shorter tenures by strikers or midfielders were tolerated more than those by defenders or keepers. Angelillo was only an Inter player for four years, but in one of those years he set the current record for scoring in a single season in Serie A (33 goals.) You were not the only one to complain about Passarella not being on the list, but far more complained about not putting Ronaldinho on the list. It would be slightly pre- mature to put him on the list, although with any tenure at all, I am sure he will be at least a reserve.