From: email@example.com (Loris Magnani) Subject: Argentinians on Italy's 34 WC team Date: 11 Mar 1994 08:57:00 -0600 >Italy: Combi, Monzeglio, Allemandi, Ferraris IV, Monti, Bertolini, > Guaita, Meazza, Schiavio, Ferrari, Orsi >Which one is Argentinian ? 1) Luis Monti - born in 1901 in Argentina. Played with San Lorenzo de Almagro before being brought to Italy by Renato Cesarini. Played for Argentina in 1930 World Cup. As his brief bio in an article on the 34 WC in Il Guerin Sportivo says: His insertion in the (italian) National team produced the jump in quality that had been long-awaited... Sounds pretty important to me... He played 18 times for the Azzurri and died in 1983. 2) Enrique Guaita - born in 1910 in Argentina played for Estudiantes de la Plata and played for the Argentinian national team. Another great player, he scored the goal that beat Austria and put Italy into the 34 final...left Italy a few years later when he was asked to do military service. Died in Argentina in 1959. 3) Raimundo Orsi- born in 1901 in Argentina. Played for both the Argentinian olympic and national teams. Played for Independiente de Avellaneda before coming to Italy and played for several South American teams after returning. Considered by many Italians to be the best left wing who ever played for the Azzurri. Scored 13 goals for the Azzurri in 35 games and scored 13 goals in 11 games for Argentina. Died in 1986. These were the "big guns". But on the 1934 team, out of the 18 roster players there were other Oriundi: Attilio DeMaria (actually played for 1930 Argentinian World Cup team). Played 13 games with 3 goals for the Azzurri. Anfilogino Guarisi - A Brasilian Oriundo- played with Friedenreich in Brasil. Played for the Azzurri 6 times with 1 gol. I believe that's it. All Italians recognize that the Oriundi (foreign players who had at least one italian parent or grandparent) played a critical role in the 34 WC and it is likely that Italy would not have won without them. (See comment on Guaita above). I believe that Italians are also proud of their Oriundi and that we have nothing to be ashamed of since the rules at that time permitted their use in this fashion. If the Argentinians are upset that Monti, Guaita, and Orsi played for Italy, well, that's understandable, but no-one forced these players to play for Italy and the rules did allow it. Look at it this way: I read somewhere that one of Maradona's grandparents was Italian (I don't know if that's true, but Maradona could be an italian name)...if the old rules were still in vogue Maradona could have been an Oriundo and Italy would have about 5 World Cups by now!!! And don't forget Tarantini, and Passarella, and probably Caniggia!! They must have had some italian ancestry. And I always thought that the Brasilian Rivelino looked Italian and his name sounds Italian...Make that about 7 or 8 World Cups for Italy... It's fun to give vent to nationalistic passions through soccer, and, in general, it is healthier than in other ways, but every once in a while, maybe we should watch the movie Mediterraneo (I recommend it highly)... There's a line there that I think about often... "Stessa faccia - stessa razza" --- Same face, same race... We can expand that to more than just Mediterranean peoples and remember that there are more ways that we are the same than there are ways that we are different. Cheers, Loris =============================================== Subject: Re: Argentinians on Italy's 34 WC team From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Loris Magnani) Date: Aug 2, 1995 Thank you, Ariel, for re-posting that old article on the Oriundi. I think most italians realize the contribution of the various argentineans and uruguyans of italian descent in the 34 and 38 WC. We know they are not italians, which is why we call them Oriundi and not "italians"... there really is no confusion on this point. But aside from helping us win the 34 and, to a lesser extent, the 38 WC, the Oriundi in the 30s helped Italy achieve their greatest era of soccer dominance. Since then, Italy has produced some great players and nice teams but we have never gotten back to those levels. The experiment with the Oriundi did not end in the 30s, however. Italy tried to emulate that era by using Oriundi in the 50's and into the mid 60's. The results here were disastrous though, culminating with the 62 disaster in Chile, where one of the best Italian post-war teams crashed disastrously under a series of circumstances that I would rather forget. Some of the Oriundi who played for Italy in this period include such all-time greats as Jose Altafini, Omar Sivori, and Juan Schiaffino. The repeated failures of the 50's and 60's led Italy to drop the Oriundi concept even before FIFA passed rules against it. No real Oriundo has played for the Azzurri since the mid-60s (I hedge slightly because the Latin Americans' favorite italian defender, Gentile, was born in Lybia. But he had an italian passport even as a child and "learned his soccer" in Italy). In closing, there is one thing about this debate which mystifies me... and that is the lack of mention of Spain's use of one of the 3-4 greatest players of all, Alfredo DiStefano. He played many games for the Spanish national team AFTER having played for the Argentinian team (though not in a WC because of Argentina's semi-boycott of the WC in the 50's). This would be like Portugal using Pele or Italy using Maradona... Anyway, under the existing FIFA rules, even full italian citizens, like Balbo and Sensini, will never be allowed to play for the Azzurri. The reason they got their italian citizenship has to do with the Italian federation's rule about having only three foreigners on the pitch. Under that rule, Balbo now counts as an italian and Roma can put in Fonseca, Aldair, and Thern as the three foreigners. At least at the club level these debates vanish. In my case, as long as someone wears the red-and-black stripes they are "milanista" no matter where they come from. Which is why Schiaffino or Altafini are as much "rossoneri" as van Basten or Rivera or Baresi.