From: (Loris Magnani)
Subject: Argentinians on Italy's 34 WC team
Date: 11 Mar 1994 08:57:00 -0600

>Italy: Combi, Monzeglio, Allemandi, Ferraris IV, Monti, Bertolini,
>      Guaita, Meazza, Schiavio, Ferrari, Orsi
>Which one is Argentinian ?

1) Luis Monti - born in 1901 in Argentina. Played with San Lorenzo de
Almagro before being brought to Italy by Renato Cesarini. Played for
Argentina in 1930 World Cup. As his brief bio in an article on the 34 WC
in Il Guerin Sportivo says: His insertion in the (italian) National team
produced the jump in quality that had been long-awaited...

Sounds pretty important to me... He played 18 times for the Azzurri and
died in 1983.

2) Enrique Guaita - born in 1910 in Argentina played for Estudiantes de
la Plata and played for the Argentinian national team.  Another great
player, he scored the goal that beat Austria and put Italy into the
34 final...left Italy a few years later when he was asked to do military
service. Died in Argentina in 1959.

3) Raimundo Orsi- born in 1901 in Argentina. Played for both the
Argentinian olympic and national teams. Played for Independiente de
Avellaneda before coming to Italy and played for several South
American teams after returning.  Considered by many Italians to be
the best left wing who ever played for the Azzurri.  Scored 13 goals
for the Azzurri in 35 games and scored 13 goals in 11 games for Argentina.
Died in 1986.

These were the "big guns". But on the 1934 team, out of the 18 roster
players there were other Oriundi:

Attilio DeMaria (actually played for 1930 Argentinian World Cup team).
Played 13 games with 3 goals for the Azzurri.

Anfilogino Guarisi - A Brasilian Oriundo- played with Friedenreich in
Brasil. Played for the Azzurri 6 times with 1 gol.

I believe that's it.

All Italians recognize that the Oriundi (foreign players who had at least
one italian parent or grandparent) played a critical role in the 34 WC
and it is likely that Italy would not have won without them. (See comment
on Guaita above).  I believe that Italians are also proud of their Oriundi
and that we have nothing to be ashamed of since the rules at that time
permitted their use in this fashion.

If the Argentinians are upset that Monti, Guaita, and  Orsi played for Italy,
well, that's understandable, but no-one forced these players to play for
Italy and the rules did allow it. Look at it this way: I read somewhere
that one of Maradona's grandparents was Italian (I don't know if that's
true, but Maradona could be an italian name)...if the old rules were
still in vogue Maradona could have been an Oriundo and Italy would have
about 5  World Cups by now!!!  And don't forget Tarantini, and Passarella,
and probably Caniggia!! They must have had some italian ancestry.
And I always thought that the Brasilian Rivelino looked Italian and his
name sounds Italian...Make that about 7 or 8 World Cups for Italy...

It's fun to give vent to nationalistic passions through soccer, and, in
general, it is healthier than in other ways, but every once in a while,
maybe we should watch the movie Mediterraneo (I recommend it highly)...
There's a line there that I think about often...
"Stessa faccia - stessa razza"  --- Same face, same race...
We can expand that to more than just Mediterranean peoples and remember
that there are more ways that we are the same than there are ways that
we are different.


Subject: Re: Argentinians on Italy's 34 WC team
From: (Loris Magnani)
Date: Aug 2, 1995

Thank you, Ariel, for re-posting that old article on the Oriundi.

I think most italians realize the contribution of the various argentineans
and uruguyans of italian descent in the 34 and 38 WC.  We know they are
not italians, which is why we call them Oriundi and not "italians"...
there really is no confusion on this point.  But aside from helping us win 
the 34 and, to a lesser extent, the 38 WC, the Oriundi in the 30s helped 
Italy achieve their greatest era of soccer dominance.  Since then, Italy 
has produced some great players and nice teams but we have never gotten
back to those levels. 

The experiment with the Oriundi did not end in the 30s, however.  Italy
tried to emulate that era by using Oriundi in the 50's and into the mid
60's.  The results here were disastrous though, culminating with the
62 disaster in Chile, where one of the best Italian post-war teams 
crashed disastrously under a series of circumstances that I would rather
forget.  Some of the Oriundi who played for Italy in this period include
such all-time greats as Jose Altafini, Omar Sivori, and Juan Schiaffino.
The repeated failures of the 50's and 60's led Italy to drop the Oriundi
concept even before FIFA passed rules against it.  No real Oriundo has
played for the Azzurri since the mid-60s (I hedge slightly because the
Latin Americans' favorite italian defender, Gentile, was born in Lybia.
But he had an italian passport even as a child and "learned his soccer" 
in Italy).

In closing, there is one thing about this debate which mystifies me...
and that is the lack of mention of Spain's use of one of the 3-4 greatest
players of all, Alfredo DiStefano.  He played many games for the Spanish
national team AFTER having played for the Argentinian team (though not
in a WC because of Argentina's semi-boycott of the WC in the 50's).  
This would be like Portugal using Pele or Italy using Maradona...

Anyway, under the existing FIFA rules, even full italian citizens, like
Balbo and Sensini, will never be allowed to play for the Azzurri.  The 
reason they got their italian citizenship has to do with the Italian
federation's rule about having only three foreigners on the pitch.  Under
that rule, Balbo now counts as an italian and Roma can put in Fonseca, Aldair,
and Thern as the three foreigners.

At least at the club level these debates vanish.  In my case, as long as
someone wears the red-and-black stripes they are "milanista" no matter
where they come from.   Which is why Schiaffino or Altafini are as much
"rossoneri" as van Basten or Rivera or Baresi.